AUDIO TRANSCRIPT

The Poetry Magazine Podcast: Esther Belin in Conversation with Allison Akootchook Warden

(If you notice a mistake in the transcript, please let us know by emailing [email protected])

(MUSIC PLAYING)

Allison Akootchook Warden:

(READS EXCERPT FROM “we acknowledge ourselves”)

we acknowledge ourselves, the Kaktoviġmiut
we are the people of this island and of the mountains and lands around us

Esther Belin: Welcome to the Poetry Magazine Podcast. I’m guest editor, Esther Belin. I’m thrilled to welcome listeners to this conversation with Allison Akootchook Warden, an interdisciplinary artists from the Alaskan Native village of Kaktovik. Her poem, “we acknowledge ourselves,” opens the Land Acknowledgments special issue of Poetry magazine. I could not have found a more fitting poem that acknowledges original habitants, the historical and current situations, connecting them to the land, settlers and foreign governments. The poem presents an opportunity to restore, celebrate, heal and grieve. We discussed our thoughts about the practice of acknowledging land before events, as well as Allison’s incredibly collaborative writing process. Here’s Allison.

Allison Akootchook Warden: We’ve been here since time immemorial, I like to say. My village of Kaktovik is 350 people, around that. I would say I’m trained as a storyteller. I know that my biological grandmother, I would call her a performance artist. So, if we go back to when I was around eight years old, it’s a crowded gym, and I remember seeing my biological grandmother, who’s the sister of the grandmother that raised me, I remember her in her atikluk, which is our traditional dress, and with some kind of mask, and she was working the whole crowd, making them all laugh. I remember her having no fear, being completely bold, with super bright, bold colors on her traditional clothing, doing something outrageous with her body and with sound to make the whole gym laugh. And I was sitting in the gym bleachers myself, and next to me was her sister, my grandmother, saying, “You’re like her. You’re a storyteller, too. You’re gonna be like her.”

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(SPEAKS IN Iñupiaq – transcript of this forthcoming)

I am Allison Akootchook Warden. I’m Iñupiaq. I’m a tribal member of the Native village of Kaktovik. And I was born and raised here in Fairbanks, where I live currently. And the poem is called, “we acknowledge ourselves.”

(READS EXCERPT FROM “we acknowledge ourselves”)

before we bring this meeting to order
we want to acknowledge ourselves, the Kaktoviġmiut
yes, Siliun, this is how they are doing things nowadays
                  we are doing it right

                     we acknowledge ourselves, the Kaktoviġmiut
  we are the people of this island and of the mountains and lands around us
                           and all our traditional hunting areas

                                                                                                       since before the military came
                                                                      and bulldozed our old sod houses our entire village
                                               so they could make a runway and yes we are still angry about that
                                                                  and we are still wanting reparations for what they did
                                                                               they finally did take that hangar down …

(FADES OUT)

Allison Akootchook Warden: The poem, I wrote it from a place of, we just came from a meeting in Anchorage, and they did a land acknowledgement. This is new, let’s try to do one up here. And so, how would we do that? And when I was talking to my cousin, who I see as the tribal chief, and he actually works for the Native village of Kaktovik, he said, “Actually, we did go to a meeting and a land acknowledgement was done.” And he had a lot of, you know, feelings around it. And he thought that my poem captured his feelings around it. I had already been in a habit with everything that I do to be in conversation with an elder, at least one elder, so that I could make sure that I was doing good for the culture, and not on some kind of thing that doesn’t represent us.

Esther Belin: I love hearing that it was a tribal effort, that this really came from the people who represent the land and the region. What kind of gave you that idea, or how did that unravel into asking other folks to help with some of the things?

Allison Akootchook Warden: I think it’s a natural outgrowth of who I am as an artist. I was lucky, because I had my own elder for a long time, my mom. And so, I lost my mom, it’s gonna, —it’s just become two years. So I feel like I’m fully through my grief. But it was a huge loss. The gift of living with my mom and having such a close relationship is that she was that rock of cultural knowledge and support. And if I have an idea, I can immediately kind of throw it towards her. And she could say, “Oh, yeah, that’s totally in alignment with who we are.” Or, if it’s totally, like, “That is way not who we are. I don’t know where you came up with that one. But that’s not in alignment with our values or our culture or anything,” so. But for this poem, I wanted to make sure that I was not forgetting anything, that I wasn’t misrepresenting who we are or where we are at this moment in time.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(READS EXCERPT FROM “we acknowledge ourselves”)

(FADES IN)

that day
                                                                                        what they did was wrong

and we are still here

and even though the military still today has that huge other hangar
                                                                                                      on the other side with that
                                                                                                                             military man
                                                                                                   who lives in there that we have
                                                                                                                                      never met
                                                               and the other that relieves him every three weeks or so  

we were here before
                                                                    they put those big humongous radar ears up       
                                                                                                        and then took them down   
                                                   and yes they left many barrels and still never got all of them

we all want all their residue?
               to be
    off our island forever

(MUSIC PLAYING)

Allison Akootchook Warden: I had an elder listen, outside bingo. And I was like, “Look, can I read this to you guys?” And so they listened to the whole thing, which is kind of long. And then the elder agreed with everything, felt really good about it, except he wanted me to add one line. And that was around there being a lack of listening with the young people, and that they need to remember to listen more. Out of everything that he heard, that was the only thing he wanted to be put in there. And I was like, “Thank you.” That was the easy fix. When I read it, I could tell that they were like, “It feels good to hear this,” you know, “it feels good to hear our story being told in this way.” So, I’m very thankful that I have that kind of support. And then when my cousin came into town, he wanted to read it on his own. He didn’t want me to read it out loud. So he read it and processed it. And then he took a pen and started like, “Oh, and this too and this too.” But at this point, I said, “I don’t think I can make that many changes at this point.” It had already been accepted. And you were just waiting for a few minor tweaks. So I was like, “I think I could change one word. Let’s just go for that.” (LAUGHS)

Esther Belin: Yeah.

Allison Akootchook Warden: So I was like, “Is it still going to be good if I only change this one word?” and he was like, “Yeah, it will be fine.” Because, you know, there is just a little bit more details. And some of the things that we went through, have gone through as a village, that he wanted to add, but he said, it’s fine on its own the way it is. So I didn’t—I wasn’t too far off base. And also he was like, “This is how I felt. “This is what I was feeling. And then you put it in a poem. This is what I felt after I came from that land acknowledgement.” So that was nice. That was a good affirmation, too.

Esther Belin: Yeah, I feel like it also represented the acknowledgement, and the history that we carry as Indigenous people when we speak, or when we present publicly. And that was the touching part of it. You know, some things that I found in there were humor, and, you know, tribal history, and personal history. And you’re right, it is long, but it’s, in contrast to land acknowledgments that you hear in public spaces, which tend to be, you know, I’d say 30 seconds to maybe a minute, this one was so thorough, and I think it was refreshing. And I’m hoping that it will be refreshing to people listening in to know that, you know, we support these ideas, but the history of the complexity around land, and unceded land and, you know, tribes that had a presence there, that might not have a presence there anymore, is very complex. And in order to really present that, you know, a full lens, you really do need that community effort. And so that makes me even more excited about the poem, that you really took that intent back and said, “Here, I want to offer this to the world. And I want to make sure that I’m doing it in the proper way.”

Allison Akootchook Warden: Yes. And the scary part of doing that is they could say, “How dare you say this,” or, “You’re totally wrong, I’m gonna fight you on this,” or, (LAUGHS) you know, like, or that they’ll want like, “You can’t put this out there.” You know, this is something that, you know, so there’s, there’s, you know, like, I’m taking my precious piece of writing that I’ve massaged and worked on and, you know, thought of and, and then I’m giving it over to people from the tribe that do really hard work in totally different areas, and they could just shut it down.

Esther Belin: Mm-hmm.

Allison Akootchook Warden: And instead of doing that, they took it and made it better and lifted it up even more. So that’s the risk is, you know, when you share something, and, you know, give it back to the community for them to tweak, that they could reject it, and then it would have been a different story. But thankfully, through three different people, they were like, “This is good, you’re on the right page.” So, I think it’s worth the risk.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(READS EXCERPT FROM “we acknowledge ourselves”)

we were here before
                              the government started drawing arbitrary lines
                                        encasing us into this wildlife refuge

                                      without our full knowledge or consent
where strangers break into our cabins on our own land
                                                     up in the mountains each and every year

                       no matter how many signs we put or what kind of locks we use
         and because of these borders not our own
                                          we cannot hunt the way

                                                      our relatives in other
                                                                                     villages hunt
we have more restrictions and regulations than the others
                          yet we still are able to get the food we need
                                               around the land we care for and know

ii, we are still fighting these arbitrary borders and lines today, thank you Ekowan
and also thank you aŋaaluk for those letters you put out
                                                                               they needed to see that

and all of us fighting for our ways of life and as we continue to fight
even in this strange language
we had to learn to fight them with
                                                        arii, piliaqsuŋa taniktun uqaġama

we acknowledge our Elders that are still on this land
and our Ancestors                               buried just over there and over there too
                                       and our own people who are still living here
                                          especially the little ones like Uqumaiḷaq here
                                                         and all our future relatives yet to be born

(MUSIC PLAYING)

Allison Akootchook Warden: So storytelling, throughout this poem, it’s really the story of who we remember ourselves to be before all of this stuff happened in a really rapid succession. I call it rapid colonization.

Esther Belin: Mm-hmm.

Allison Akootchook Warden: And how we still are the people before all these things happened. (LAUGHS) Before this happened, this happened, this happened, this happened, this happened. We’re still the people before all those things happened. We are still those timeless, time immemorial people that still hold these old stories, we still remember the old songs, we still are in relationship to the animals in the same way. It’s a continuum of who we are. And by going all the way back in this land acknowledgement to the time before the time before, you know, before these things started to happen in rapid succession, it really aligns us into our power, and reminds us that those are just temporal. They’re not central to who we are. It’s something that we took in and are still processing and dealing with, yet who we are is bigger and older and a bigger, older story than all of that. So it takes the power away from the colonizing forces and brings it back into our perspectives as Indigenous people, and our relationship to the land, which has been since time immemorial, and shifts the power back to where it’s always been. So that, you know, the big, the story of “This happened, this happened, this happened” doesn’t become bigger than who we were before they arrived and who we continue to be even with all that stuff that we have to—all those layers, layers of contact.

Esther Belin: Oh, yeah, I feel like that was one of the most beautiful things about the poem was that it was hopeful. It wasn’t at all a vengeful tone. And I feel like that’s just an amazing perspective that many tribes have. You know, they acknowledge this horrible past and continued horrible, detrimental legislation that’s going on. But yet, they’re, they also acknowledge at the same time, but we’re still here. And we’re still continuing in our culture, we’re still continuing in our language. And we’re also, like you, as an example, we’re taking those risks, right, to be interdisciplinary artists, to bridge our traditional viewpoints with things that are happening. And the other thing I think that was really neat about this poem, is the idea of in the moments. Because I love where there’s these turns in the poem, where all of a sudden you acknowledge, like, oh, and so-and-so just joined the meeting. And oh, let’s not forget about this.

Allison Akootchook Warden: Yeah.

Esther Belin: So it really had that community feel. Because I think those are Indigenous poetics. Because I feel like if you sent it to a different place, or if this is a poem that you maybe, you know, had in a poetry workshop, they might have said, “Oh, take those out. Take that part out. That’s, that’s distracting.” Right?

Allison Akootchook Warden: Yeah. Well, that—I was writing it from the perspective of someone like my cousin, who did have this experience. He went to Anchorage for a meeting. And he did, exactly—I didn’t know this until after he had read the poem. I was writing, imagining my cousin going to a meeting, and him listening to a land acknowledgement. And then him wanting to bring that new technology of land acknowledgement back to the village to share what they’re doing in the bigger cities. He was a character in my mind. How would he do a land acknowledgement on our own land?

Esther Belin: Mm.

Allison Akootchook Warden: (LAUGHS) And it would start at a meeting, and people might not be listening. So he might have to reiterate his main points to make sure that they got it. The people who came in on the meeting later on, those are people who might normally be late to a meeting. It’s, you know, in my village, those are—a name that people would if they read it, they would be like, “Oh, yeah, that person would probably say something,” or, “That person would probably be late.” I wanted my own people when they heard it to feel like they were home. And that they could automatically picture the scene in the community hall, with the door prices and the tables and the chairs and the kids running around. That they would immediately be anchored. And that it was almost like a transcript of how this first attempt at a land acknowledgement from our perspective would happen. It wouldn’t happen perfectly. It would be interrupted. You would be corrected in the moment by your uncles. They would say, “Oh, don’t forget this.” And then you’d have to say, “Thank you. Yes, I remember that. Okay, thank you. Yes, you’re right. We’re doing this wrong little bit, but we’re gonna keep going with it. We’re almost done.”

Esther Belin: (LAUGHS)

Allison Akootchook Warden: And so, (LAUGHS) I wanted people from my village to feel like it felt like, you know, a snippet of what it’s like to be there. I hadn’t heard a land acknowledgement from people on their own land done in a way that felt natural to them. I’ve only heard it from people not of that culture, acknowledging the people of the land, in a place that they’re not originally from.

Esther Belin: One of the reasons why I think it’s important to have these discussions is, I would like people to, whether they’re Indigenous or not, but be able to have that connection with the land that they’re on. Right? Whether it’s a foreign soil or whether it’s a fractured connection, or there was violence there. I think acknowledging that history back and seeing your connection to it is a powerful thing. And I feel like when people are able to do that, and to really, you know, take time to discover what their connection is to the place that they’re living, that’s empowering.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

Allison Akootchook Warden:

(READS EXCERPT FROM “we acknowledge ourselves”)

we the Kaktoviġmiut remember how we have always been whole

                                              nakuurugut
                                     we are good we have always been good
                       living here in the ways taught to us by our Elders
                                                                                 and our Elders’ Elders’ Elders

and even though there were two waves of diseases that we didn’t know
                         how to fight
                                  naturally
                           we lost many of our people
                                 yet many of us survived
                                           those waves

and since we are talking about these things in a community hall meeting
                     might as well mention the alcohol that came to kill us
                        and the cancers that we can guess where those came from too
                            and the fog of smoke and qaaq that has stayed and lingered

and I know that we aren’t used to acknowledging ourselves
            but when me and Fannie went to the big meeting in Anchorage
                                                                           they did one of these

                                                 land acknowledgments
                                so apparently everyone is starting to remember

Esther Belin: I can’t remember exactly when I became aware of land acknowledgments before events. But when I saw that happening, as part of public spaces, I didn’t really know how to interpret it. Because I didn’t know if this was a new trend to tokenize or legitimize all of that history. I was unclear as to the true intents. I wasn’t sure if it actually did more damage by oversimplifying the history and creating offense to people who may be in the audience, where it did not acknowledge things that they felt needed to be acknowledged about the land. Like, what if that was your family? You know, what if you are on land that was unceded, and you know the history, like a massacre just happened down the road. Right? And now it’s uncovered and revealed, but in a very, almost in a 30-second soundbite. So I think a lot of those feelings of uncertainty, a little bit of fear, a little bit of tokenism, circulated around this, this newer practice that I’d say I became aware of maybe about a couple of years ago. Do you have any thoughts around that or share similar feelings?

Allison Akootchook Warden: It can be disarming. I have a friend. She’s a white artist. She’s a white person who’s an artist. (LAUGHS) She’s a lovely friend. We’re pen pals. She’s almost translucent. She’s a beautiful white, you know, she’s just this beautiful, amazing art maker, community person. And I have a lot of respect for her work. She works at the Anchorage Museum, which is one of our large art institutions here. And she is often tasked with doing the land acknowledgement. And she’s from somewhere far away, like Boston or something. And she moved to Alaska. And she’s making a home here. And so then I’m sitting in a workshop, where she’s leading it, you know, for different artists that have received grants and where the museum is doing some kind of thing for all of us. And she’s leading it with other people. And she starts with this land acknowledgement. And it almost becomes a performance in itself, about the way that she holds the space for these, for the people and the pauses that she uses. It’s almost like she could be brought to tears at any moment about, you know, reciting this complex history. From her perspective, as a settler person who came and has moved here, and I know her and I know that she’s done a lot of research, she’s very researched focused as many artists are. And it can be a little disarming to hear it from her. (LAUGHS) To talk about the issues that have happened on the land that’s not even my own, or doesn’t belong to my own people. Is the performance of that enough? Is it deep enough? What is she backing it up with? What is the museum backing it up with, with each land acknowledgement? Are they—do they also have a fund to give land back to the Indigenous people? Do they have—I almost want to hear, “We acknowledge this, and we’re doing this, this, and this programs from the museum to support Native emerging artists, or to support tribal entities, we give X money in dollars to them a year.” I think that would be the more interesting part for me, (LAUGHS) is if they also acknowledged how they’re putting this acknowledgement into practice. You know, the Anchorage Museum is a huge supporter of me and my work. So I know that they, they also have had exhibits of, you know, they had a huge exhibit from the people’s perspective of the land that they’re on. So I know that they are doing the tougher work, but I wouldn’t know it if I had just popped in there and didn’t have this ongoing relationship with them. I think the alternative of what it was before is that, there was no land acknowledgement, there is no acknowledgement that there were Native people here or that there are still Native people here or, (LAUGHS). So I think it’s a problematic new practice that brings up lots of feelings and needs help. It needs help. (LAUGHS) Yeah, I think it’s—there’s a performative aspect that can not feel good to Native people in the audience. (LAUGHS) I could feel surreal. I think it’d be good if a person of the land was there also, especially for a big conference. I think if they could just speak for themselves and open the conference from their perspective, I think that’s better than a person like my friend, who’s fairly new to the region. I don’t know. (LAUGHS)

Esther Belin: I think there’s a variety of ways to do it. I do think you raise some interesting points around the performative and static way that I’ve seen them read. And for folks who are designated to be part of that process, because it’s their job.

Allison Akootchook Warden: Yeah. (LAUGHS)

Esther Belin: Yeah, I think that’s a different kind of burden. But I love some of the language that you used around land acknowledgement practices, because ultimately, we’re acknowledging the place, but it always goes back to the people.

Allison Akootchook Warden: Yes.

Esther Belin: So, you know, I think we’re in agreement around the complexity of it, and also understanding the movement behind it. And that if it wasn’t there, then we wouldn’t actually acknowledge that, and it would be silent, that history would be erased. But I definitely think we can make it more of a revitalization of the people, rather than just the statements.

Allison Akootchook Warden: Yes. And I always want to ask, did they talk to the people, and say, “Do you want to be acknowledged?” Because maybe some people don’t want to be part of it, like, every meeting that you have, we don’t want you to say, “We’re on the thing of this land.” And you know, “We acknowledge this and this.” So, or maybe taking your draft and running it through the tribe and saying, “This is what we’re going to say at the beginning of all our meetings, what do you think?” Because there’s a fear of building that relationship with Native communities. And I’ve talked to a lot of other Native artists about this, because bringing a Native artist in to an institution to do work with communities brings up all these issues of like, “Actually, no, we’ve been here 50 years, and we’ve never talked to the Native people of this land.” Or, and that can be very hard as an organization to have that reflected back on themselves. And hard to start a relationship that hasn’t been started, when they should have, could have done it years and years and years ago. So it’s like a delicate process now to, you know, like, “Okay, now we’re going to change how we operate as an institution in relationship to the Indigenous people of this land.” You know, so, when it starts to become a conversation with actual Indigenous people of the land, then it can get messy and awkward and uncomfortable. And there’s—then it becomes a power dynamic into it too, of like, this big, huge cultural art organization that has millions of dollars a year, if you look at their track record then, looks, you know, this little tiny bit of money has gone to Native programming or this. And so it can be like an awkward thing that’s not easy to fix right away. (LAUGHS) So, I just want to encourage our organizations to continue to do the work, and to acknowledge that it’s not easy to start to do things that could have been done hundreds of years ago. But we need to start somewhere. And I—that’s what I see land acknowledgments as, a baby step towards being in right relationship to the people of the area.

Esther Belin: I love that thought. And I also like the idea, too, in that, it really is okay to say, “This is a working draft.”

Allison Akootchook Warden: Yes.

Esther Belin: You know, “We want to acknowledge this, but we’re still working to get it right to make sure that we’re honoring.” And that reminds you of kind of just what you did, right? You’re working on this and you’re like, “It is a working draft, but I need to make sure,” right? And so following that step, it’s like you already did this step. So I think that’s a good model. (LAUGHS)

Allison Akootchook Warden: And I think I’ll, because I’m friends with this young woman that does these land acknowledgments, I really want to ask her, I would love to hear her like, just kind of, if it’s going to be a performance, then fall apart in front of all of us. And, you know, cry about how you didn’t, you know, didn’t know what to look for, like, tell me about the process of how you got to this beautiful 30-second thing. (LAUGHS)

Esther Belin: Yeah.

Allison Akootchook Warden: Make it two minutes, and let the first minute and a half be about, you know, more in depth around your process around it, because I know that she had to have struggled to make this beautiful, short snippet.

Esther Belin: Mm-hmm.

Allison Akootchook Warden: That’s more interesting to me, to hear that also. So, (LAUGHS) the object shouldn’t be this perfect little, “We did it.” But it also needs to show that it’s a conversation with community and they’re gonna get it wrong. And that’s okay. Everybody knows you’re gonna get it wrong. (LAUGHS)

Esther Belin: (LAUGHS)

Allison Akootchook Warden: It’s okay. It’s really interesting when you get it wrong, because it’s interesting to watch and to witness and then we move forward from there. Interesting, not but not bad, because it’s a part of the process.

(READS EXCERPT FROM “we acknowledge ourselves”)

everyone is starting to remember

and we remember too?
         how to acknowledge one another
                and how we remember our relatives and how we are related
                   we remember how to sing and dance and how to take care of
                      the land

because we need to acknowledge our young people too
        even the ones who are pretending they don’t understand
                                                                       or can’t talk yet
                                                                            we know you are paying attention

yet we also want to say the young ones have also been having a lack of
   listening
                             and they need to fix that right now

oh and of course
our relationship to the animals
           the aġviq, the tuttu, the fish, the nanuk, the qavvik
                           oh yes and the aiviq and the beluga whale
                                 and I know I am forgetting some animals thank you Ukpik

     and we were here before the tourists started to travel here to see our
       polar bears
                                                                    without giving back to our community
                                        and yes we are starting to regulate those tourists too
                            as a community
                    working together

yes the amaġuq and I know we have too many animals to mention right now
       and we need to get started with these door prizes soon
                   yet let me say one more time
                            because I see that Michael just came in the door
                          we the Kaktoviġmiut acknowledge ourselves
                                     sovereign here on our own land

                                        sovereign here forevermore
                                                                       despite all of these other ways
                                            in which they thought they could make us forget

                                                                       or think we were broken
              we are whole and good and we remember all of it
                                                                       an unbroken line
                                                                             going all the way
                                                                                         all the way
                                                                                             all the way
                                                                                                           back

from the time before the time before
                                                            nakuurugut
            we are the Kaktoviġmiut, the original people of this place
            we have never ceded our lands
            we always remember our long long long ago ways

that we are living even today and even though we are thankful for many
    modern tools
that we put to use in the ways that our Elders agree with
the outsiders’ ways are not our ways
we belong here
              and on our mountains and all the places near that we travel for food
                                                                                                   and on the ocean

            we remember who we are

            today and forevermore
            we acknowledge ourselves
            in our power as Iñupiaq
                          aulayaiqsimarugut Kaktoviġmiut
                                                            tavra!

now Alasuuraq will draw the first prize because I believe he is our oldest
    Elder here
   we will draw a couple few more door prizes
                                                        now at the start
                             and then the rest at the end of the meeting
                                  I know we have a lot to talk about

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Esther Belin: A big thanks to Allison Akootchook Warden. Warden is an installation artist and poet who spoke with us from Anchorage, Alaska. She is a tribal member of the Native village of Kaktovik. You can read “we acknowledge ourselves” by Warden in the July/August 2022 issue of Poetry, in print and online. If you’re not yet a subscriber of Poetry Magazine, there’s a special rate for podcast listeners. For a limited time, you can get a full year of the magazine for $20. That’s 11 book-length issues for just $20. Visit poetry magazine.org/podcastoffer to subscribe. That’s poetry magazine.org/podcastoffer. This show is produced by Rachel James. The music in this episode came from Resavoir, Alabaster DePlume, John McCowen, Rob Mazurek, and Irreversible Entanglements. Okay, that’s it. Until next time, be well, stay safe, and thanks for listening.

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