Us vs. The End
AUDIO TRANSCRIPT
VS: Us vs. The Finale
Danez Smith: (SINGS) She’s playing Squid Games with my heart, it’s Franny Choi!
Franny Choi: And they’re your favorite student’s favorite poet and your favorite teacher’s best friend, Danez Smith!
Danez Smith: And you’re listening to VS, where poets confront the ideas that move them.
Franny Choi: That was me telling everybody that I am your favorite teacher.
Danez Smith: I heard. (LAUGHS) I heard the humble brag.
Franny Choi: (LAUGHING) Making sure that that came across.
Danez Smith: I heard the humble brag. I liked it, yes. “I am an amazing educator.” (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS) Oh my god. Nezzy, I can’t believe it.
Danez Smith: Yeah, it’s our last episode. Ever.
Franny Choi: Yeah. It’s super weird.
Danez Smith: It’s like the last day of high school. You know? You’re like 17, and everything you think you’ve known is over now, you know?
Franny Choi: Although, last day of high school, I was like, I was sort of like, “Okay, well that was that. Done.” I feel like it’s, for me it’s like the last day of camp, the last day of summer camp, you know?
Danez Smith: Yeah.
Franny Choi: Where it’s like you’re really sad to see it all go, but you know that like, the memories will stay with you forever and, you know, you’ve changed. And you’re a little bit more grown now, a little bit wiser.
Danez Smith: Yeah.
Franny Choi: And maybe you like, lost your virginity, you know? Somewhere in the process.
Danez Smith: (LAUGHS) Aww.
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: That magical summer where you first got fingered, aw. (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: (LAUGHING) Yeah, that’s what VS is like for me, you know.
Danez Smith: (LAUGHING) Of American poetry.
Franny Choi: Yeah, of American poetry. Well,
Danez Smith: Well, before we get too much further, we do have a guest on this last episode of VS, who’s kind of been here all along. He’s been Agatha all along.
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: (LAUGHS) And I think we should introduce him. We thank him in every episode, but we’re gonna introduce him in the proper VS way. So, Franny, you want to start?
Franny Choi: Yes.
(DRUM ROLL)
Franny Choi: He’s a himbo with a brain, aka just a good dude.
Danez Smith: He’s the Anne Hathaway to our at-risk youth. (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS) He’s the man behind the curtain, which is way less creepy than it sounds.
Danez Smith: He’s the star of a live action remake of As Told by Ginger.
Franny Choi: And he’s the most thoughtful golden retriever to ever ask you to get closer to your mic.
Danez Smith: It’s Daniel Kisslinger!
(ALL LAUGH)
Franny Choi: Daniel Kisslinger, everybody!
Daniel Kisslinger: Oh my god. Hey y’all.
Wait. Hey, Daniel. Wait, I have three more. Can I? (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS) Yeah, Danez before we started recording was talking about how they had too many of these “He’s the”s, so yeah, we’ll let you do them.
Daniel Kisslinger: It’s now or never. You gotta do them.
Danez Smith: Okay, cool. Thank you. Imagine we have three more episodes. Okay, one. This white man works for us! Take that, history! It’s Daniel Kisslinger.
(ALL LAUGH)
Franny Choi: That’s really good. Yeah.
Danez Smith: Okay, cool. And these two, these last two are kind of related. They’re both about podcasts. So, one is, he’s the Tina Marie of the VS podcast, Daniel Kisslinger! And this one—
Franny Choi: Wait who’s Tina Marie? Who’s that?
Danez Smith: Tina Marie?
Franny Choi: Who’s Tina Marie?
Danez Smith: The white girl who used to sing with Rick James.
Daniel Kisslinger: Oh yeah.
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: What esteemed company.
Danez Smith: Yes. And this one is because he also works on the hit podcast AirGo. I said, he’s the Scott Storch of POC podcasting, Daniel Kisslinger!
Daniel Kisslinger: (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: Wait, who’s that?
Danez Smith: Scott Storch is a white man who’s made a lot of Black music.
Daniel Kisslinger: He’s made a lot of songs that you were like, “Huh. Did not think that was the man behind that.”
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: Yep!
Daniel Kisslinger: So, hey, everyone, nice to meet you, listeners who have never heard my voice.
Franny Choi: Yes, Daniel Kisslinger has been our shepherd through it all, making all of our long ass rambliness coherent and possible for other people to listen to and understand. So, we thought it would be only right if Daniel was here, on mic, on air for our very last episode as this team, in this iteration of VS. So hi, Daniel.
Daniel Kisslinger: Hello. I’m so glad now I get to ramble and then edit myself later. That’s perfect.
Franny Choi: (LAUGHING) Right. Yeah. Oh, man. How’s it feel to come out from behind the curtain here?
Daniel Kisslinger: Well, I always think about, you know like when you’ve only heard someone’s name or you hear it in the credits over and over again, or sometimes like if you’ve only heard someone’s voice on a show, and then you see what they look like. I am so curious and we will never know like who our listeners have been envisioning.
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: Someone has a sense of what my voice is supposed to sound like and they’re like mad at their podcast right now that this is what I sound like.
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: So, sorry to them. But here I am. And it’s great to get to kind of, yeah, as we pack our trunks to leave summer camp, I’m glad to do it with you two.
Danez Smith: I hope all of our listeners, some of our listeners are having that disappointing feeling you get when like, you’re like, fave like, POC artists like brings their white partner to like, the red carpet. (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: And you’re like, damn.
Daniel Kisslinger: And they all have—no one can see it, but they all have the same haircut that I have right now.
Danez Smith: Yeah.
Daniel Kisslinger: It’s always just a guy with like a kind of short haircut.
Danez Smith: Daniel is our supportive silent white partner. (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: It’s been a pleasure.
Franny Choi and Danez Smith: (LAUGH)
Franny Choi: Like, “I’ve been holding this purse for five years.”
Daniel Kisslinger: What a privilege to hold your two purses. (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: You hold ’em well, Daniel.
Franny Choi: You hold ’em well.
Danez Smith: Play your role. (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: Well, I want to know, Daniel, how has it felt like, because you’re not unfamiliar with poetry, right? AirGo has poets on it all the time.
Franny Choi: And you’re in community with poets outside of just this podcast.
Daniel Kisslinger: Yeah.
Danez Smith: But how has it been for you? What’s your like, as like, sort of the silent partner, at least in like what people hear—you’re not silent with us—what has it been like to sort of sit through five seasons of all these different poetry conversations for you? And I guess how was your relationship with poetry maybe changed on the other side of it?
Daniel Kisslinger: Hmm. I think mostly, it’s kind of healed my relationship with poetry. This wasn’t the first project that I’d done related to poetry. But I was kind of coming out of a period where a lot of those projects hadn’t really gone well. And collaborations had kind of fallen apart. And I was pretty much ready to step away from this world. And as someone who isn’t a poet, I kind of felt like maybe there wasn’t really room for me to exist within it. And so I think some of it has to do with the three of our relationship, but a lot of it has to do with getting to have a hand in sharing all of these thoughts about it, but especially all these like, readings of poems and getting to sit with those and hear those. Yeah, I think I have a much happier, friendlier relationship with poetry now, where I think I feel less excluded or on the outside of it, if that makes sense.
Franny Choi: Totally. Yeah. I mean, I feel like, you know, in addition to being like an audio wizard, and a structure of the show and listening for segues wizard, I feel like one of the things that I’ve been so grateful for, in terms of like, what you bring to the show is like, actually that outside ear of like, somebody who is not a poet, and so can listen for, like, what people who are maybe like a step or two outside of like, the space that Danez and I occupy, like, what they might get out of the show, like having, being able to listen to that. And so like, I wonder if you, like after five years of doing this, like what you think VS does for people who aren’t poets?
Daniel Kisslinger: Well, I think the first answer is just what I like most about the show, I enjoy hearing smart people talk about things that are interesting to them, which is why we built the show together as we did. The fact that the people we’ve had on write good poems is almost incidental to what I enjoy most about the show. It like shows that they have a comfort with language and with play with language that I think, as someone who spends a lot of time listening to people talk, a lot of people don’t. And that’s what I love listening to about the show. And I think that’s what a lot of people love, is yes, it’s poets, sometimes talking about poetry, but mostly it’s people who like have fun with words getting to play for a while.
Franny Choi: Yeah.
Danez Smith: What’s it been like working with us? (LAUGHS) How has your opinion of me changed?
Franny Choi: What’s, yeah, what’s the best thing about me? Why am I great?
Daniel Kisslinger: We jump to Fast Punch, but it’s just all validations. (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS) Best joke I’ve ever made. Best outfit I’ve ever worn. (LAUGHS) Wait is that—are we actually asking Daniel those questions?
Daniel Kisslinger: I can answer this question. I like this question. I’m not going to say the best outfit you’ve ever worn. That’s, that seems subjective. But, you know, like I mentioned up top, I was coming into this feeling like I didn’t have the relationships with the people making these types of art that felt like, reciprocal and whole. And, you know, neither of you knew me coming into when we started this project, you know, over five years ago. But this has been, you know, one of the, like, healthiest and longest lasting collaborations that I’ve ever had. And, you know, we were very young when we started making this show.
Danez Smith: Still are!
Franny Choi: Yeah.
Danez Smith: Dammit.
Franny Choi: But were even younger. Yeah.
Daniel Kisslinger: And just when I think about, like, what I knew about making things and about art and about, you know, working with people, like, y’all have been the collaborators that I’ve like, learned how to collaborate with in a lot of ways. So I’m really grateful for that. And I’m gonna flip it on you. I’m so curious. So, this is a little behind the scenes, but like before we ever recorded an episode, like the first time the three of us met, I like, drove to Ann Arbor and sat with the two of you for three hours or something. And we planned kind of what our pilot would be and got a feel for what the show would be. And I’m so curious what y’all’s first impression of me was. Or like, what did you assume about me then that isn’t true or like, I’ve thought about this, to be perfectly honest, quite a lot. I was just some random person who showed up in your apartment in Ann Arbor.
Franny Choi: Yeah, I guess one of my first impressions was, this man is very, has a very grounding and grounded presence. And like, connected to that was, this white man is confident.
Danez Smith: (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS) You know? And I was like, hmm, why is he so confident?
Daniel Kisslinger: A little sus.
Franny Choi: Yeah. What’s he got to be confident about? But then it turned out that you had a lot to be confident about! (LAUGHS) You know, like, I think also like, that grounding presence and that confidence that the show is going to be okay, and that we’re doing something that is good or like meaningful, or, you know, or that something’s working. Like, I think I have so much anxiety constantly about that, that you’re sort of like, that combination of like, grounding presence and like, sort of like quiet assuredness, just became like, so integral for me over the last few years, like to not just like, fall apart constantly. And was like doubting myself and doubting, you know, us. So like, thank God. (LAUGHS) You know?
Daniel Kisslinger: (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: Yeah, I resonate with that. I feel like it was like, it didn’t feel like a confidence that like, wanted to like, rule in some ways, right? Like, I think like, I think it was like a very opposite energy. Like, I think about the first like, sort of pre-iteration of VS that happened before this trio was a thing when PoFo had reached out to me and was like, “Do you want to have a podcast?” It was me and the producer, and like some older folks on the media team that are no longer there. And that first podcast, I mean, I think I’ve talked about it before, here, but it sucked. (LAUGHS) We recorded like, I think like five or six episodes that will never see the light of day, because all of them are trash. I just didn’t know what the fuck I was doing. And I don’t think there was anybody there to say, “What the fuck is this?” Like, you know, I think everybody thinks they can have a podcast until they have a podcast. You realize like, oh, shit, this shit’s a lot harder than it looks like. And I don’t know, Danny, you are somebody that like for me, like my first impression, maybe at that meeting, I was like, “Okay, we had a good meeting.” But I think it really started to become once we were recording and you were so good at like helping me and Franny realize our weak points, and also our strong points. It’s not even an outsider view. I think like, because you’re definitely familiar with poetry, with poets. But just having somebody just like, you know, a lot of your job was to sit like, right outside of these conversations, right. But also, like, I don’t think people know that, like, you know, like, there were times that you were like, interrupting to, like, make sure we didn’t miss a point and all this other kind of stuff. And I think that really nurtured my own mind about like, what types of curiosities to allow on the show. And how to have conversations. So I think my first impression of you, like, doesn’t matter, because it matters what I think of you now, and I think the world of you, right. You know, like, I don’t know, like, it was just like it, we used to spend some long weekends together, you know, so like, the way we used to record folks, was we would, pre-COVID, we would kind of drop in into a city, Chicago most of the time when we were recording in the early days. And we would just do like, four episodes in like, two or three days, you know, so we were just spending like a lot of face time together in this little studio. And it was really like boot camp, I think those first two seasons, learning how to do this thing. And like, you know, I mean, shit, we all like, smelled each other and looked at each other some tiring days. (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: We definitely smelled each other. Definitely smelled each other.
Franny Choi: Yep. Yep.
Danez Smith: Yeah, and that’s what I think of you, is like, the literal time and energy and like, everything we poured into this, that’s my impression of you, you know? And I love you. Yeah.
Franny Choi: Also, I will say that I think that my first impression of you was like, very serious, or like kind of serious.
Daniel Kisslinger: Mm-hmm.
Franny Choi: And then it slowly became apparent that you’re an absolute clown.
Daniel Kisslinger: (LAUGHS) Yeah, no, absolutely.
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: No, I was like, I have to be a professional. That was why I was like, assured, I was like, I have to communicate assuredness here and then—
Danez Smith: Well there was a moment where y’all two realized y’all were a similar type of nerd too.
Franny Choi: Right. Right, right.
Danez Smith: (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: We had some two on one pun sessions here.
Franny Choi: Oh yeah, yeah! (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: Where Danez’s eyes are like on the ceiling as we go back and forth.
Danez Smith: Please go no further (LAUGHS) with your puns.
Daniel Kisslinger: Can I share a pun that I came up with yesterday—
Franny Choi: Yes.
Daniel Kisslinger: —that I think Franny will love and Danez won’t like?
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS) Please.
Daniel Kisslinger: What do you call it when someone like has like, a thing for pasta?
Franny Choi: Um, I don’t know what?
Danez Smith: A fettucine?
Daniel Kisslinger: A fettucine! A fettucine! Yeah.
Franny Choi: Ahh!
Danez Smith: (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: You did it!
Franny Choi: That was really good!
Daniel Kisslinger: Excellent.
Franny Choi: Oh my god.
Daniel Kisslinger: But yeah, I mean, what you just described of all that—
Franny Choi: Penne envy. Sorry.
(ALL LAUGH)
Daniel Kisslinger: Excellent work. But what you described about the dynamic and just the intensity of that collaborative time, my goal the whole time was not like, “I know what I’m doing.” But it was, whatever y’all do is what it’s going to be. Like the show is just what we make. So not, we know how to make the perfect show. But whatever we do make is good enough. And I think, especially when people are making things in relation to an institution, and they’re just starting to build that craft, like, if you haven’t made a lot of that form before, there’s this feeling of, it has to sound like somebody else, or it has to be up to a certain kind of abstract caliber that doesn’t actually mean anything. And so, my whole goal was like, what we know how to make and what we can make today is the show, and that’s good enough. And that’s what we’ve done all this time. Like, there were a lot of things that we did that we didn’t know what the fuck we were doing, or we’d never done before. And that was good enough. And that’s what the show was.
Danez Smith: You know, but Daniel, what you’re describing is, like, really like how to be a good poet, you know? And I think I’ve learned a lot about maybe not even just poem making, but art making doing this shit, right? Because of like, how we have conversations, you know, we can come in with as much of a plan as we think and we’ve seen like, you know, conversations just get away from us. And like, you know, the guest says something, and we just go someplace that was unexpected, which is so much of like, how a fucking poem happens, right? You go into it thinking it’s gonna go one way. You and your little meager thoughts. I’m sorry, I’m so far away from the mic right now, what’s going on?
Daniel Kisslinger: (LAUGHS) See you don’t need me anymore!
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: Yeah, I keep, I’ve been trying to move forward like three minutes and it’s just been a cord has been like unable to—(LAUGHS) so I’ve been like, humping—
Daniel Kisslinger: I was like, Danez is really in a mood right now.
Danez Smith: Yeah like, ahhh! I just wanna be closer. Okay. Anyways, I don’t know, I feel just like a more skillful, like, interviewer, question asker, but also, I feel like I know, I know so much more to trust the unpredictability of conversations and trust that there’s mana somewhere in there, right? And like the getting lost of it. I really appreciated that in this show.
Daniel Kisslinger: For sure. Well, should we go to a couple examples of that?
Danez Smith: Fuck yeah!
Daniel Kisslinger: Some gems.
Franny Choi: Yeah.
Daniel Kisslinger: The delicious nutrient that we found?
Franny Choi: Yes. We wanted to share with you all some of our favorite moments from the last five years, the last five seasons of VS. And it is really hard to pick them, because there’s so many and because there have been so many episodes. But I guess we wanted to just start with one of our most special in house reading moments of a poet reading their own work. So, and I think that Daniel, this was one that you chose, yeah?
Daniel Kisslinger: Yeah, I mean, I remember so many amazing readings and I loved the intimacy of getting to be in the room with these poets sharing their work, but there was something about this one in particular that like, one, it’s just a poem I love, but the way that Ilya Kaminsky read “We Lived Happily During the War” really moved me. So, here’s Ilya from August of 2019 sharing that poem.
(SOUND EFFECT)
Ilya Kaminsky:
(READS POEM)
We Lived Happily During the War
And when they bombed other people’s houses, we
protested
but not enough, we opposed them but not
enough. I was
in my bed, around my bed America
was falling: invisible house by invisible house by invisible house.
I took a chair outside and watched the sun.
In the sixth month
of a disastrous reign in the house of money
in the street of money in the city of money in the country of money,
our great country of money, we (forgive us)
lived happily during the war.
Daniel Kisslinger: Oof. I’ve wanted to give a post-poem “oof” for so many years on this show.
Franny Choi and Danez Smith: (LAUGH)
Daniel Kisslinger: (EXHALES) Part of why I picked that is, one, I just love it, but also, in the most like generous reading of that poem. I kind of feel like in some ways, that’s what we’ve done. Like, we’ve been doing the show over, I don’t know if y’all have any sense, some shit’s been going on for the last five years.
Danez Smith: Really?
(ALL LAUGH)
Daniel Kisslinger: And not that any time isn’t, you know, the world on fire. But it’s been so great to have a place to live happily for an hour or so. And we’ve heard from so many listeners that that’s what this show has done. But like, those weekends of us recording in that boot camp zone, there was just a lot of laughs and good food and creative thinking and getting to kind of do the word dance together. So, I think that’s part of how I’m going to think about this time.
Franny Choi: Plus one to that all around. But also, you know, like the “we lived happily during the war”, like that’s like a complicated and kind of thorny thing to say, and I think that it has been sometimes like the complication and the complexity of doing what we do is something that I feel like we haven’t avoided here. Like we haven’t strayed away from the weirdness and the complexity of doing this show during the war TM. Yeah.
Danez Smith: It’d be weird if the real world didn’t permeate into our show, right? I think like, we’ve always had a particular kind of hesitancy to some things, right, because we make a sort of evergreen podcasts or like, we were for a long time, right? Like, we sometimes don’t talk about the world because like, when things we’re recording come out like three months after recording them. But I think especially during the pandemic that, like, broke down a lot. We’ve always made space for like the complication of the world, but I think like the complication of like, time started to, like, bleed into this a lot more. And I think we’ve had to embrace, even with what our guests bring, I think, sometimes, like, we’ve talked to a lot of poets who don’t feel like poets in the current moment, right? And yet, we still make it somewhere with those conversations. And so yeah, like, we lived happily, we even like, loved poetry in the midst of like, feeling far from it sometimes, you know. And that’s what I think, all the things of that poem can apply that yes, like, the turmoils that exists outside and inside and yet still this like, ability to have some even type of like, small joy within that. And literally, like forgive us for that, right? (LAUGHS) I think we’ve even embraced like that guilt, right? I think like, you know, guilt has been a topic on the show a lot too. The guilt of success, the guilt of survivor’s guilt, the guilt of so many things, and like, what do you do with that?
Franny Choi: Which, by the way, as both a Korean and former Catholic, oof, I eat that shit up!
Danez Smith: (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: Oh my god.
Daniel Kisslinger: (LAUGHS) That’s breakfast right there.
Franny Choi: Yeah, that’s breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
Danez Smith: But I think I love what the poem does, it doesn’t give us an answer, right? It like, asks for forgiveness, but it doesn’t seek an answer. And I think that’s part of been what I think I’ve walked away from this podcast learning too is that like, sometimes in like, deep conversation, you can’t reach for that answer, right? All you can do is kind of keep talking. And maybe you get close to it, you circled to something, but the only kind of true answer is like to keep talking about it, because it keeps moving and changing. (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: Mm-hmm. Well, speaking of the complications of time, and things moving on, Danez, do you want to talk about your favorite moment with Cynthia?
Danez Smith: Yes! I do. So this is from a fairly recent episode of ours, with Cynthia Dewi Oka. One of my favorite things that happens on an episode happens, where like, there have been times where of course, like we’re interviewing writers that we like, look up to, or that we’re close to, and I loved Cynthia’s work, but I like, didn’t really know Cynthia like that. (LAUGHING) And I was in love with her by the end of this episode.
Franny Choi: Which, I have to say, I just want to say, I knew you would be.
Danez Smith: Yeah, you did. You clocked it. (LAUGHS) By the end of that conversation, I was just like, who is my friend. (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: We’ve made like 100 podcasts and 45 crushes for Danez on this show, I feel like.
Danez Smith: Oh my god, so many crushes, so many.
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: But I think one thing, when we like first said, “Oh, let’s go back and listen to our favorite clips,” I went into this episode looking for something completely different. But this conversation happens towards the top of the clip, where she’s talking about her new book, Fire is Not A Country, being a lyrical family history that she was trying to pass down to her son. A question I asked was why that history that she passed on to her son had to be lyrical. And this is what she had to say.
(SOUND EFFECT)
(CLIP PLAYS)
Danez Smith: So why was it important to give him the lyric?
Cynthia Dewi Oka: Because history repeats itself? I think to me, it’s kind of like an oxymoron, you know, like lyrical history, because the impulse of lyric is to build connections. I come from a country where centuries of our history were lost. We had a very authoritarian dictatorship for many years that suppressed scholarship, banned writers and like all these things, so it’s like, there’s this vacuum, there’s just this gap. It’s filled with, like, propaganda instead. Part of the reason I was so obsessed with history was this trying to find cause and effect. Like, why did these things happen? What are the consequences? Why we are where we are today as a quote-unquote country or people or like whatever. And I just felt like, I couldn’t make sense of the Indonesian part of me because we didn’t have that. We didn’t have like, that narrative. So I obsessively like consumed other people’s histories of themselves, you know? There are these really deep patterns that end up showing up again and again and again, regardless of like what the community is, or power wants to replicate itself constantly. And I think the lyric, the invitation at the lyric, I should say, is kind of like put causation to this side. And like, let’s look for new possible relationships, knowing that we carry all of the baggage and the injury and like whatever. I think that’s one. And I think the second part is, the lyric does not pretend to be objective. It’s private. It’s idiosyncratic. It is partial and fallible by definition. This is the history that I am able to tell, these are the images that stuck with me, but it’s like, I don’t want him to think that like, this is the family history, because that would be replicating a certain kind of authority, I guess, that I didn’t necessarily want. And also, you know, then there’s like the paradox, which is like, you are a writer, like what the hell are we supposed to do but like, write shit?
Danez Smith: (LAUGHS) Yep.
Cynthia Dewi Oka: So like, okay, well, that’s the best that I can do. Like, I have to write it, because that’s what I am. But I can, I can make it in a form that resists totality.
(CLIP ENDS)
Franny Choi: We’ve had some really smart people on this show.
Danez Smith: So fucking smart, right? (LAUGHS) And like, one, I think, like, the reason I picked that is because I think it does, like just alight in me with so much from a craft way. And I feel like it’s a charge, right, to say, like, you have to write your work, your history, your whatever it is, from your position, right. And I love what she says about like the lyric going away from totality, right? Going away from authority, right? But I love something, too, she says something at the start of that clip, which is about the lyric being a thing that wants to communicate, right? The lyric is as a means of communication. And I think that is, feels so free from I think a lot of the formulations of the lyric in the “lyric I” that I’ve heard in some of these more academic spaces, about the lyric being this individual poetic voice, right. And I think—I don’t think she’s denying the individual, right, or saying, like, this is what I could do, me as an individual, this is what I could make. But that feels so much more part of a community than an isolated thing of saying, like, even if this is my voice, I have a voice because I want to speak to others. And to me, that is so much of what VS has been about, has been trying to move the audience closer to like, the lyrics that move them, to the poets who make that, and trying to break down that border that tells people that poems aren’t trying to reach to them, that poems aren’t trying to call to them urgently. Because I think we are as poets, even if we don’t know it, sometimes. To me, Cynthia’s formulation of the lyric as like this individual voice and echoing and repetition within history that is calling out lovingly to folks, and is not interested in its isolation, to me is such a welcoming invitation into poetry, and to writing poetry as well. That yeah, like, I heard that and I was like, “That’s it! That’s poems!” (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: (LAUGHING) Yeah.
Daniel Kisslinger: We finally solved it, guys.
Danez Smith: We did.
Franny Choi: What I love about that, also Danez, and like, connecting this definition of the lyric to what we’ve been trying to do in VS is that I’ve also read, you know, in definitions of like, what the lyric is as like, this kind of like, triangulated address, like this, a person speaking to another person that’s like, overheard by other people. You know, like this private sort of dialogue that’s like, eavesdropped upon by the reader or the listener. I both love the way that Cynthia is kind of pushing, as you say, against that and saying, like, “Yeah, maybe it’s like happening. It’s like me and the beloved, and like, you’re just kind of here, but like, I’m also trying actually to reach the reader.” And that seems to just also be kind of what we’re doing here, like, having these intimate conversations, but also, in doing that, trying to reach other people through the art of intentional eavesdropping, you know?
Danez Smith: (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: I love that.
Daniel Kisslinger: Yeah. And I love the way that she framed it as a way to communicate a history that challenges authority or doesn’t claim authority. I thought that that also feels so consistent with what we’ve done. You know, if there’s any show that doesn’t claim objectivity, it’s us. (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: Like, we’re like, “This is us. This is who we’re talking to. This is what we’re talking about. This is our shit about it.” And I think there’s so much value in that. Not just like, how do you always be fighting back against authority, but how do you, when it could be offered to you, say “No, thank you.” And I think as we figured out how to step away from the show, I think that that kind of configuration has been a really big part of our decision making, too. When do we want to say, “You know what? I actually don’t think I want that access or that power, or I want someone else to have that opportunity that we’ve been so lucky to have, to make the thing that they want to make from their positionality.”
Franny Choi: Yeah, yeah. To be able to say, “Okay, that’s enough authority for me, thank you.”
Daniel Kisslinger: Thank you very much.
Franny Choi: I’m full. (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: Yeah, that was like a very great opportunity that has turned into power, you can have it back.
Daniel Kisslinger: Yeah.
Danez Smith: (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: I mean, that is like a whole other conversation. And I don’t know, I’m not exactly sure where I’m going with this. I started to feel worried about talking about our reasons for leaving, but I guess it’s okay. I guess that’s like, what we’re doing.
Daniel Kisslinger: We’re leaving.
Danez Smith: We’re leaving. (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: Yeah, you know, I don’t, I guess I don’t want to be like, “Oh, look at how benevolent we are, sharing our power.” You know? But I think that like, we’ve always hoped that VS would open up possibilities rather than, like, foreclose upon them, you know? Or like, create a new little, a new little box, a new little castle. I think, you know, again, to bring it back to what Cynthia was saying, like, I really love and find a lot of hope in what she says about the lyric opening up possibilities besides just like the causation chains of history. I hope that us leaving the show is part of a larger and more dispersed opening overall, you know?
Danez Smith: I mean, I think so. You know, and I think like, I’m excited to now get to see the poetry world through someone else’s eyes in this next iteration, right. And like, we’ve had five years of like, curiosity about poetry from Danez and Franny. (LAUGHS) You know? And that’s great, you know, but I think like, I’m excited for these next folks to come on and ask for us, you know, please dive into this poetry. And I think that’s so beautiful. And I think also what it is, is like, I’m excited to pass this on to somebody who might not have had as many opportunities to sit at the feet of all these poets, you know?
Franny Choi: Right, just as we were five years ago.
Danez Smith: Just as we were five years ago, right? You know. And surely, another five years of us doing this would—I’d be still in awe to like, you know, get to talk to all the people that we get to talk to, but like, that was a really cool experience. And like, somebody else should get to have that much fun. (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: Yeah, it’s true.
Danez Smith: You know, and get paid for it. (LAUGHS) Please get paid to like, talk to the poets you want to talk to. What a dream, you know?
Franny Choi: I will also say that like, sitting at the feet of the poets and like, soaking in their wisdom is like, you know, obviously, such an amazing thing about having gotten to do this. But perhaps I think equally amazing is sitting at the feet of like, our heroes, and soaking in like their absolute ratchetry.
Daniel Kisslinger: (LAUGHS) (CLAPS) Absolutely.
Franny Choi: And with that, the moment that I wanted to bring into the space to remember was Marilyn Chin talking about an altercation that she got into years ago.
(SOUND EFFECT)
(CLIP PLAYS)
Marilyn Chin: I’m actually a really shy, kind of a nerdy person. You know? I mean, really, I spent my 20s in a in a dark library reading weird Chinese poetry, you know?
Danez Smith: Yeah. But then you come out the library and you look at Ezra Pound in the eye and say, “All these bitches is my sons, you did it wrong.” (LAUGHS)
Marilyn Chin: (LAUGHS) And a bunch of us, you know, a bunch of wild women, we worked in this restaurant called Gold Ten, and we took the poor busboy and we ravaged him. (LAUGHS) From head to toe! Yeah, I’ll stop there, but I know. (LAUGHS) Oh, you know, I don’t know. I just I think we’re all weird characters. I mean, I would love to have 10 husbands and four wives, but I can’t! I’m too disorganized.
Franny Choi and Danez Smith: (LAUGH)
Marilyn Chin: I would be a wilder bitch if I were more organized.
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS)
Marilyn Chin: And I can’t organize my life, so. I can’t clean my house. I’ve been, you know, my house is a total mess. But my poetry must be perfect.
Danez Smith: Yep.
Marilyn Chin: I have that edge. You don’t want to mess with this motherfucker. You know, I think I punched somebody during a reading.
Danez Smith: I love poetry fight stories. Please continue. Yes. (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: Literally punched somebody during a reading?
Marilyn Chin: Well, you know. (LAUGHS) It was (BEEP). We read together at San Diego State and, I don’t know, he was really drunk or something, but I had my hands around his throat.
Danez Smith: Yes!
Marilyn Chin: And my students had to pull me off. And he had his hands around my throat. But I realized his neck was really thin. And it stopped me. I can’t remember what that was all about. But you know, everybody thinks he’s really funny. I think I’m funnier than (BEEP).
Franny Choi: Yeah.
Danez Smith: And you choke stronger.
Marilyn Chin: (LAUGHS) But in any case, we yelled epithets at each other. I said (LAUGHS) racial epithets. I forget what it was. It was terrible, it was a terrible thing. But it was funny, yeah. On hindsight, it was funny.
Danez Smith: In hindsight, that’s hilarious. I needed to know that at one point Marilyn Chin was—had her hands around [BEEP]’s throat calling him a honky. (LAUGHS)
Marilyn Chin: (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: That is necessary information.
Franny Choi: Yeah, that’s just good for the archive.
Marilyn Chin: I don’t think I called him a honkey, I can’t remember what it was.
Danez Smith: Cracker, there’s not too many for them.
Franny Choi: Yeah.
Marilyn Chin: He said something like, “Why don’t you read ‘Slow Boat to China’?” And I said something like, “Why don’t you sing ‘Auld Lang Syne’” or something like that. (LAUGHS) It was just, it was ridiculous! I don’t know what it was. I didn’t call—he didn’t call me a Chinese bitch, or anything. But you know, it was like, we said just something really stupid to each other. (LAUGHS) And then they had to pull me off. And that was, yeah, that was a weird incident. Yeah. But, you know, I have these moments. But basically I’m really sweet, kind, and compassionate. (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS)
Marilyn Chin: If you can believe that.
Danez Smith: I can! This rings true for me, too, because there are some selves that I can’t be all the time that get to live in the poems instead, right. (LAUGHS)
Marilyn Chin: Yeah, yeah, right. Right. But yeah, I don’t know if he remembers that incident, but … uh … my students do.
(CLIP ENDS)
Daniel Kisslinger: Oh my god. So fucking funny.
Danez Smith: So great.
Franny Choi: So funny. I also just, oh my god, like, of course Marilyn Chin is really funny, you know that from her poems, but it’s just like on 1,000 when actually talking to her?
Danez Smith: Yeah.
Franny Choi: Yeah.
Danez Smith: That clip was 80 percent laughing. (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: “I wish I could have 10 husbands and four wives, but I can’t because I’m too disorganized” is the funniest thing to me! (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi and Danez Smith: (LAUGH)
Franny Choi: So good!
Daniel Kisslinger: Like, my house is a mess, I can’t do it with all these husbands!
Franny Choi: Oh my god. Oh by the way, also, if you were not able to figure out what preeminent white male American poet’s name was bleeped out in that episode, all we’ll say is that we dropped a few hints. So just go back and listen to the episode.
Daniel Kisslinger: We bleeped it at Marilyn’s request. And she kind of went back and forth on it a little bit. But she was like, alright, you can leave the clues in. So all of my like, VS podcast detectives like, listen to the whole episode, if you can’t figure it out by the end, like, do a closer reading, because we make it very, very clear.
Franny Choi: Yeah. (LAUGHS)
(ALL LAUGH)
Franny Choi: That’s all we’ll say on that.
Daniel Kisslinger: Yeah.
Franny Choi: But it has been obviously like so great to talk to people that we know and love, who are our peers, or who are, you know, mentees of ours, even, you know, folks that whose trajectories we’re excited to be seeing, you know, far into the future. But also, like, there’s been something so special about meeting our heroes that feel so far away from us, like, you know, in the opposite direction, like so have come before and like laid the groundwork for us to exist and for our communities to exist. Like Marilyn chin, like truly, I would not exist without her, you know. And to at once, learn so much from them, and also realize that they’re fools. You know? (LAUGHS) Like, in the best way, you know, that they’re so wise and such fallible, funny, weird fools at the same time has just, I think, been really good for the soul and for making me feel like, yeah, I can be a full human as well, you know? Like Carl Phillips is a full human, I can be a full human. Like Marilyn Chin and Naomi Shihab Nye are silly. I can be all of myself.
Daniel Kisslinger: Yeah, it was something that, as we interviewed more poets who are older than us, or a generation ahead of us, I loved learning that part of what happens if you’ve been doing this work for a long time is you really stop giving a fuck.
Franny Choi: (LAUGHING) Yeah.
Daniel Kisslinger: Like really deeply. It’s so rare to see people not give a fuck in public in a way that is joyous and not angry. That’s just been so wonderful. Like, oh, here are some examples of like, you can be a grown up like that.
Franny Choi: Yeah.
Daniel Kisslinger: So I’ve loved seeing that.
Danez Smith: I think we’ve also seen sort of the opposite sometimes, too, where I know there’s been a couple of like, folks that who are like of this generation above that have been like deeply silly, sort of like, in the before and after we record, but then the second we start recording, they switch into like, something a little bit more serious. So yeah, they switch into pro mode.
Franny Choi: Oh yeahhh.
Danez Smith: And like, even from that, I think I learned a lot about protecting which parts of yourself you want to offer, right? Like, I think we’ve seen the example maybe on the Marilyn Chin side, where there’s been like, I’m at this place where like, to protect myself is to just be myself, wherever I go, you know? That there’s nothing I have to apologize for, that you wanted this experience, this is what you get, and I’m not gonna play into any type of idea of what you think I’m supposed to be like, or what a poet is supposed to act and move like. Which, what are we but humans? And then there’s been other folks, right, where I think like, I see that sort of pro mode as a way of saying, there are actually things in my life and about my personality that I kind of want to keep sacred. And for me, and not in these formats. And I think those interviews are still warm, and they’re still giving, but like, that’s been like a permission too, to be like oh, like, you can both let it lay all out. And you also can say, hey, that part is for me, you know, that part is for my intimates. And not for this like, public discourse setting. So, I’m going to go ahead and tuck that back in here, not because I don’t want y’all to see it. But because that’s mine. (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: Yeah. I love that.
Daniel Kisslinger: And the other thing that I think I observed with folks who did that, or at least what I assumed was, especially when those people had been around for a minute, they’ve done a lot of interviews that weren’t with the two of you. And so they kind of learned like, this is what you do in an interview. And we’re going like, “No wait, like, we’re not here to dehumanize you.” (LAUGHS) “Like, we’re here to learn from you and be in this with you.” And I loved the moments where someone would switch into pro mode at the beginning, and then 47 minutes in, they’re giggling and goofy, and we’re making them tell us which, you know, how they like the potatoes.
Franny Choi and Danez Smith: (LAUGH)
Daniel Kisslinger: That kind of like permission to say, “Hey, you don’t have to be, you know, the professor, you don’t have to be the polished performer. Like, we’re here not because you’re perfect. We’re here because we care about what you’ve made, and we want to be in the room with you.” That’s something that I feel like we’ve offered as a show that I don’t imagine a lot of these like established poets have had that many opportunities to do. They’ve been interviewed a lot, but they haven’t been like given permission to be their full selves a lot in public.
Franny Choi: Yeah, I mean, because it’s like, yeah, the interviews can be like, for lots of obvious reasons, like, you know, just another performance, like another thing where you’re like, on the spot. I mean, it’s work, and it takes like that work brain from you. And I think like when labor is happening, there’s always the opportunity for it to become exploitative, you know? Like, while that’s always going to be a dynamic in something like an interview for public consumption, like, is there a way to do it where, yes, there’s labor, but there’s also like, relationship building and where like, everybody is actually being fed in the process of doing that work and cares at the root of the thing rather than like, output, you know? And I don’t know, I think that’s been something that I don’t know if we’ve like, accomplished, but I think that it’s something that we’ve been like, it’s been on our mind, we’ve been sort of like striving toward.
Daniel Kisslinger: Yeah. I remember in those early meetings, one of the things that we did in talking about what kind of interviewers do y’all want to be, was we talked about, like, the worst type of interviews that you’d experienced on the other end. And so, not just how do we not be that guy, but like, what was it about that, that felt so draining, or felt like it was taking so much or felt like there was no reciprocation? And how do we learn from that experience? You know?
Franny Choi: Yeah, that was a really helpful exercise. And I also want to admit that I’ve had to constantly sort of push back against like, my, on the interviewer side, just trying to be like, give us your answer, like, give us your smartness, like, make the smartness happen, so that we can have a good show, you know? That’s something that I’ve had to like, fight against, actively.
Danez Smith: I feel like one thing that really helped us, honestly, like, you know, and this has been behind the scenes, but, when we say like, “VS, where poets confront the ideas that move them,” that’s literally because we ask them beforehand, right.
Franny Choi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Danez Smith: Like, what, you know, before they even come on the show, like, “What are you thinking about and moving about?” And I think I sympathize with you of like, struggling like not to push poets to like, sort of like, you know, to drain them for like our own game, but I think the flip side of that is sometimes, I know that’s been just about like, trying to like dig a little bit, because I think like that’s part of the blessing of this process, right? And what of like, part of what makes us unique is that curiosity about literally like what is currently on folks’ mind. Like, you know, the project that is coming into the world and nobody’s seen yet.
Franny Choi: And like, “How do you feel about that?”
Danez Smith: Yeah. And I think like part of your pushing, and I think part of the pushing we’ve had on the show has led to some beautiful moments, because I feel like we’ve seen a lot of folks have like, new thoughts on this show.
Franny Choi: Mm. Oh my god. Like, okay, sex is cool, but have you ever had an interviewee come to a new thought in real time on your podcast? (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: Yeah! (LAUGHS) Like, that’s an invigorating, you know, just like watching folks be like, oh, like, figuring out a passion or a project or just like, you know, like, having to put the language together for the first time, in a way. That’s been so … yeah, just invigorating for me as an artist, you know, just to like, see folks do that.
Franny Choi: Well, and also because like, that’s what it is to be in community with other artists, right, like, to be sharing your work together is to constantly be asking each other like, “What do you mean by that? Keep going, like, you’re doing something here, like, maybe keep pushing, like, go,” you know, encouraging each other to like, be our most creative and inventive and, like, empathetic selves is like, that’s what it means to like, be poets who are writing together, and so, like, and what it means to be in community with other artists is decidedly not like, “What do you have for me?” You know? Like, “What new stuff do you have that I can sell?” Like, that’s absolutely the opposite end of what it means to be in community.
Daniel Kisslinger: Well, I’m glad we made a space for that.
Franny Choi: I hope so!
Danez Smith: I think we did.
Franny Choi: Yeah.
Daniel Kisslinger: We tried!
Franny Choi: We tried! We tried. And like maybe, you know, maybe you can do it better. Maybe other people can do it better. But yeah, we tried our best. Um, I have to pee.
Danez Smith: (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: So, I’m gonna pee, and I’ll be back.
Daniel Kisslinger: And then we’re gonna pivot to games.
Danez Smith: Yeah. Cool. I’m gonna pee too.
Daniel Kisslinger: Yeah, that’s perfect. A pee pivot, let’s go.
Franny Choi: Amazing.
Daniel Kisslinger: I’ll be right back.
Franny Choi: Let’s go.
(MUSIC PLAYS)
Danez Smith: All righty, mother F’ers, here we are for the very last time to play a few games.
Franny Choi: Oh my god.
Danez Smith: I’m getting misty. So we’re gonna do a round robin style of our world famous game, famous amongst all 40 of our listeners.
Franny Choi: Hey! We got more listeners than that I think probably!
Danez Smith: 75. (LAUGHS) No, yeah.
Franny Choi: I remember hearing that at some point that we had a total of 1 million downloads and streams.
Danez Smith: We did. Yes, we did. They just—it’s just somebody with a very bad iPhone. It just keeps on—
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: Keep on pressing and pressing.
Daniel Kisslinger: An iPhone 3. Yeah.
Franny Choi: Thanks, grandma.
Danez Smith: We just have like a little, just a small amount of computers in Wyoming just running our numbers up. Thank you.
Daniel Kisslinger: Yeah, exactly.
Danez Smith: But what we’re going to do, we’re going to play Fast Punch. I am going to ask Daniel five Fast Punch questions. Daniel’s gonna ask Franny five Fast Punch questions. Say that five times—I can’t.
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: Anyways, yes, me to Daniel, Daniel to Franny, Franny to me, goddammit, that’s what the fuck I meant to say.
Franny Choi: Fast Punch three ways.
Danez Smith: Fast Punch three-way. Mm-hmm. Okay, should I start with mine for Daniel?
Franny Choi: Yeah.
Danez Smith: Daniel, your first one. White people’s best cultural export.
(TIMER TICKS)
Daniel Kisslinger: Hmm.
Franny Choi: Not stolen.
Daniel Kisslinger: See, that’s where it get gets tricky.
Franny Choi: Right.
Daniel Kisslinger: I’ve spent a lot of time trying to figure out like, are there specific white American cultural phenomena? Like, does that exist? Biker gangs?
Franny Choi: Oh!
Daniel Kisslinger: Is the closest I’ve come up with, but I don’t think that’s gonna be my answer. I’m gonna go not on this continent, because I don’t think that’s—I think it’s too hard. I feel like, like white people had a hand in coming up with wool. Like there was some sheep and they were like, “Let’s get to work here.” And it doesn’t fuck up the animal too bad, like sheeps need to be sheared. But I feel like, like it was a some sort of Slovenian or like a Finnish guy who was like, “Let me spin this shit for a minute, and let’s see what happens.” So that’s my answer. I’m going with wool.
Danez Smith: Okay, white people with the sheep collaboration, we got wool.
Daniel Kisslinger: (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: Or should I say sheep appropriation?
Daniel Kisslinger: Shappropriation. (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: Shappropriation. (LAUGHS) Alright, Franny, are you ready for your first one?
Franny Choi: Yes.
Daniel Kisslinger: For the first like, four seasons of the show, we got to record it with an amazing snack cabinet near us. What is the best studio snack or beverage?
Franny Choi: I’m just gonna go with a classic. String cheese. String cheese. Final answer. Okay, Danez, best sex toy you own.
Danez Smith: A vibrating butt plug that I enjoy very, very much. Former answer would have been this vibrating dildo I have, but I broke it. Having fun.
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS) Aw.
Daniel Kisslinger: Vibrate no more.
Danez Smith: (LAUGHS) No, I killed him.
(ALL LAUGH)
Danez Smith: Vibrated him to death. All right, Daniel, VS-specific question: best time you’ve had editing an episode. Whose episode was it?
Daniel Kisslinger: Oh, I loved editing Chris Abani’s episode. I thought that the conversation that he brought around language and different forms of language and the limitations that English places on people’s ability to think was so fascinating. And he told some amazing stories. So Chris Abani’s. I was just like, I felt like I got to be in the room with him telling those stories twice in a really cool way. All right, Frances, another VS one. Best weird recording studio in another city that we recorded in?
Franny Choi: Ohh, well, I think that the weirdest was the one where they were, it was like in a house. And it was in Detroit, and it was totally sweltering. And also, Danez was dying from an allergic reaction. (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: And also, they were like, “Come take a tour of the basement.” And we had to crawl under like, a fallen TV in order to get into the basement, and I don’t remember what was down there. I only remember the TV. And I also remember that I was so out of it, and it was so hot. I was just so, I was completely like, out of my body that somebody asked me—I was in Ann Arbor, we were in Detroit, and the person asked where I lived and I said, “I live in Michigan.” (LAUGHS)
(ALL LAUGH)
Franny Choi: And he was like, “Okay, where in Michigan?”
Daniel Kisslinger: Like, no more info.
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS) So that was the weirdest, I think. And maybe in some ways the best, and also the worst.
Daniel Kisslinger: And the recording we did there like, didn’t work.
Danez Smith: No!
Franny Choi: Yeah.
Daniel Kisslinger: So we had to do it again.
Franny Choi: Yeah, it was all for naught.
Danez Smith: Yeah, that was Tarfia Faizullah take one.
Daniel Kisslinger: Danez almost went into anaphylactic shock for naught.
Danez Smith: I did.
Franny Choi: Yeah, for naught.
Danez Smith: For a very confusing non-dairy milk sign at a coffee shop.
Franny Choi: Yeah. Okay. Danez, best live show that we did.
Danez Smith: I’m tempted to say the first one, with Hanif and Angel. Just even for like, setting wise, there was something about that first one. I think maybe just because we were on a rooftop.
Franny Choi: And like it was fully fam in the audience.
Danez Smith: Yeah, it was just like fam in the audience. It was just love. I think they like, that bar had made like a special cocktail, I think, for the show. And so that made—all those little special touches made it something great. Yeah.
Daniel Kisslinger: Can we real quick, just tell the story of the setup for that.
Danez Smith: Yeah.
Daniel Kisslinger: So there was another event right before us on this rooftop. And they went like 45 minutes over.
Danez Smith: I do remember that.
Daniel Kisslinger: So they ended like four minutes before our show was supposed to start, and we have to do like a full changeover. And that was actually, to what I was saying earlier about, like feeling like, oh man, there’s room in this world that I can be part of. We had to tap into like everyone we knew there to help set up the sound system.
Danez Smith: (LAUGHING) That’s true.
Daniel Kisslinger: Like Angel and Eve and everyone just was like, putting up mics and running cables. Because it was just me and Ydalmi doing the tech stuff. And then all of a sudden, there were like 30 stagehands who also were like the who’s who of contemporary American poetry. And it all worked. Everyone got to hear this great show. And that was what happened after that, like, make it, you know, kind of felt like we like, you know, did a barn raising together and all of a sudden, then we got to enjoy the show.
Franny Choi: Aw. I love that.
Danez Smith: Yeah. Aw. Okay, okay, Daniel, best pun.
Daniel Kisslinger: Oh, that’s so hard. I don’t envy our guests having to do this, I’ve just been chilling.
Danez Smith: Do you want it specific, I can make it like best food-related pun?
Daniel Kisslinger: Yeah. Give me a best food-related pun. I mean, I’m pretty thrilled with this fettuccine joke.
Danez Smith: Okay.
Daniel Kisslinger: I feel really good about that. I know there are other ones.
Danez Smith: Do you know any presidential puns?
Daniel Kisslinger: No, but I used to call the George Washington Bridge in New York, the George Washing Machine Bridge. I thought that’s pretty cute.
Franny Choi: That’s pretty cute.
Danez Smith: That is pretty cute.
Franny Choi: That’s pretty cute.
Daniel Kisslinger: So I’ll diffuse your question was some cuteness.
Danez Smith: There we go. (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: All right, Franny, best thing to order at a generic bar and grill type restaurant in a different city.
Franny Choi: Oh, man, that’s a great question that I’ve had many occasion to answer.
Daniel Kisslinger and Danez Smith: (LAUGH)
Franny Choi: The answer is certainly not salad, which I’ve learned the hard way. I think that I’m going to go with like, either wings, or if it’s lunch, the chicken sandwich, and like a soup of some kind, like the soup of the day if it’s a good one. But generally speaking, I feel like wings will always be at least pretty good.
Daniel Kisslinger: And a bad wing isn’t infuriating.
Franny Choi: Yeah, a bad wing is just like, okay, that’s fine. It was still fried chicken. You know, like, yeah. Okay, Danez, best thing to put on your skin in the wintertime?
Danez Smith: Is the answer not just Vaseline?
Franny Choi: It could just be Vaseline.
Danez Smith: I think it’s just Vaseline, you know, I think, yeah, Vaseline gets it going. All right, Daniel, podcast-related, but not to VS. Best episode of AirGo for people to start at if they want to start listening.
Franny Choi: Ooo!
Daniel Kisslinger: So for those who don’t know, this is another show that I produce and I also cohost, based here in Chicago. I mean, we did a suite of episodes last summer in the midst of uprising around abolition that were really, really great, I think as an entry point into the show and into abolition as a concept and a way of living. So I’d start with the abolition suite and/or the Angela Davis episode. All right, Franny, best thing you’ve ever left behind somewhere and not gotten back.
Franny Choi: My heart.
Daniel Kisslinger and Danez Smith: (LAUGH)
Franny Choi: God, probably the dog I lost in a breakup.
Daniel Kisslinger: Ohh.
Franny Choi: That’s probably what it is. Yeah.
Daniel Kisslinger: Oh, I was thinking like on a bus, but that works.
Franny Choi: Oh, yeah. Well, also, uh, when I was in, like, maybe like a freshman in high school or something. I had like a little binder of CDs, and I left it in on a plane. It was like my 10 favorite CDs at the time. It was devastating. I don’t know if I’ve ever recovered from that. Yeah, okay, Nezzy, best song to come on at the gay club.
Danez Smith: Ooo, “Into You” by Ariana Grande.
Franny Choi: Great answer. Really strong answer.
Danez Smith: Yeah, the girls run from the bathroom on that one.
(ALL LAUGH)
Danez Smith: It’s true. I’ve definitely been pissing and heard—
Daniel Kisslinger: A stampede.
Danez Smith: Oh, you have never peed so fast is when you hear (SINGS) “I’m so—” You’re like, oh my god. Hurry up and be done!
(ALL LAUGH)
Danez Smith: You’re like zipping up as you’re washing hands. All right, Daniel, last question. Best living Chicagoan.
Daniel Kisslinger: So I feel like I can’t be the authority on this. I’m not from here. I’m from the Bronx.
Danez Smith: Okay, best living New Yorker.
Daniel Kisslinger: Oh.
Franny Choi: Whoa!
Danez Smith: Oh, yes.
Franny Choi: Jesus! (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: I think it’s a tie between Jadakiss and Larry David.
Franny Choi: Wow.
Danez Smith: Wow.
Franny Choi: Those are too strong and very different people. (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: But I feel like encapsulate quite perfectly the oeuvre of a smelly New York street.
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: All right.
Franny Choi: Amazing.
Daniel Kisslinger: Franny,
Franny Choi: Yes.
Daniel Kisslinger: Best plant to grow.
Franny Choi: Oh my god. Well, I love my monsteras. But I think that the number one top notch thing is my scallions, because then I always have scallions. I’m rich right now in scallions, it’s so amazing.
Danez Smith: (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: If there’s one thing we need our listeners to know, it’s always have scallions on hand.
Franny Choi: Always have scallions. Always have scallions.
Danez Smith: Also, do you find that the scallions you grow from your scallions are a little bit spicier?
Franny Choi: Actually, no, no.
Daniel Kisslinger: Great follow up, hard hitting journalism question.
Franny Choi: (LAUGHING) Yeah, yeah!
Danez Smith: (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: Yeah, no, but I think they’re definitely cuter.
Danez Smith: Yes, okay.
Franny Choi: You know? Okay, Danez, final question. Daddyiest guest we’ve had on the show.
Daniel Kisslinger: (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: I’m going to give a top three.
Franny Choi: Okay, love that.
Danez Smith: One, Chris Abani. Shout-out to him getting a double answer in this round. Chris Abani, I about you as a great mentor; on a purely erotic scale, I would let you stick your hand in my mouth.
Franny Choi: Okay, okay.
Well, I don’t mean that in a sexy way. I just mean like, he has a presence that says put your hand and
Danez Smith: Well, I don’t mean that in a sexy way, I just mean like, he has a presence that says, “Put your hand in my mouth.”
(ALL LAUGH)
Daniel Kisslinger: Like, whatever I say isn’t gonna be as smart as what you said, just, plug this up.
Danez Smith: Yeah. Two, Natalie Diaz. Just giving studsman energy. You know, Natalie Diaz can also stick a hand in my mouth. (LAUGHS) And Carl Phillips.
Franny Choi: Oh, sure.
Danez Smith: Carl Phillips did not give the interview that I thought Carl Phillips was going to give. And I was like, very elated and a little bit hot under the collar after the Carl Phillips interview. So yeah, shout-out to the three daddies of VS.
(TIMER DINGS)
Franny Choi: Wow, those are really strong answers all around. Amazing.
Daniel Kisslinger: I think we won the game.
Danez Smith: We won the game!
Franny Choi: We won the game!
(SOUND EFFECT)
Franny Choi: Oh my god, I’ve never won a game on VS before!
Danez Smith: (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: What a moment! Finally, we’re winners.
Franny Choi: This is huge for me.
Daniel Kisslinger: We’re going out on top. Yeah.
Danez Smith: Wow. This is what our guests feel like? Lucky them, oh my god.
Daniel Kisslinger: Seriously.
Franny Choi: Yeah, this feels great.
Danez Smith: We’re gonna play this other game. I think we owe it to the world to do at least one more This vs. That.
Franny Choi: The tried and true.
Daniel Kisslinger: The flagship.
Danez Smith: The OG game. Yeah.
(ALL LAUGH)
Franny Choi: Yes. So we are going to now play This vs. That. We’re going to do a special and different version of This vs. That for this final episode with this team of us three. We’re going to do, in this corner, preeminent poet, Danez Smith. And in that corner, resident Asian, nerdy lesbian, Franny Choi.
Daniel Kisslinger: And preeminent poet.
Franny Choi: And preeminent poet Franny Choi. Thank you very much. And we’re going to have us face off in a three round competition of This vs. That. So we’ll announce the rounds as they come. But yeah, Daniel, do you want to say what our first round of This vs. That is for the Danez versus Franny version?
Daniel Kisslinger: What an honor.
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: Absolutely. For this first round, who would win between Franny and Danez in a one on one game of basketball?
(BELL RINGS)
Franny Choi: Hey, this is very clearly Danez would win.
Danez Smith: Not because I’m good at basketball, though, only because of like, sheer like, size and aggression. (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS) Because this is the thing! You would, you would just, you would just run toward me and I would go, “Ah!”
Danez Smith: It’d be a very long game, though. It’d be a lot of like, you running, me blocking your shots just because I’m taller and can jump higher, but then like, struggling to make a layup. (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: Yeah. (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: And there’s like, twisted ankles from time to time.
Danez Smith: Like, I would win, but it would not be in any particular like, fashion or style.
Daniel Kisslinger: Danez would win, but nobody wants to see that.
(ALL LAUGH)
Danez Smith: It’s the worst one on one game ever, you know?
Franny Choi: Yeah, it would not be good. Yeah. I would demand perfect quiet and no—
Daniel Kisslinger: (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: You know, like, no interaction so that I can concentrate on trying to throw the ball.
Danez Smith: And I’d be like, shit talking and elbowing you and you’d be like, well, fuck.
Franny Choi: And be like, that’s not what basketball is. It’s not archery. (LAUGHS) Not that I can do archery.
Daniel Kisslinger: (LAUGHS) But you demand archery style conditions.
Franny Choi: (LAUGHING) I demand archery style conditions for my basketball games.
Danez Smith: Well round one, negroes.
Daniel Kisslinger: And let’s move to round two: who would win between Franny and Danez in a spelling bee?
(BELL RINGS)
Franny Choi: This one is obviously me. There’s no question at all about this. This is just 100 percent me.
Danez Smith: Yeah, I’d misspell on the fuckin’ entry form and get disqualified. So like—(LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: (LAUGHING) Franny wins by fuckin’ default.
Daniel Kisslinger: Danez, you are one of the most brilliant people I’ve had the pleasure of knowing and one of the worst spellers.
Danez Smith: (LAUGHS) One of the worst spellers in the world. I can’t spell shit!
Franny Choi: I remember I was—we were listening, I was listening back to old episodes in prepping for this interview, and I listened to one where we talked about, for Kaveh’s episode, where our like, intro question was like, “What are you the Kaveh of on Twitter?” And I like, gave like a little self-deprecating answer. And you said, “Typos.”
(ALL LAUGH)
Danez Smith: Typos. (LAUGHING) I have a new typo to share every day with people.
Franny Choi: (LAUGHING) Kaveh of typos on Twitter.
Daniel Kisslinger: That’s great.
Franny Choi: That’s really, really funny.
Danez Smith: I just can’t spell, y’all. Luckily, I’m a writer. And so I just have to know what words make you feel, not how they’re made. (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: Yeah. I just had like a complex growing up of like, I must master this language in order to save my family. And so, I just like went very deeply into making sure that I had all of the grammar and all of the spelling. (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: I, on the other hand, am a copy editor’s worst nightmare, because neither of us know what I meant, so.
(ALL LAUGH)
Danez Smith: (LAUGHING) What did I mean?
Franny Choi: Right, like, “You’ve put here aburmuth, what is that?”
Daniel Kisslinger: (LAUGHS) “There’s an umlaut on this word, is that intentional?” And you can just always say yes, that’s the beauty of being a poet.
Danez Smith: (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: All right, so one to one. We’re headed into our final and perhaps most challenging battle: who would win in our culminating This vs That between Franny and Danez in a hunger game?
(BELL DINGS)
Daniel Kisslinger: (LAUGHING) I’ve also never described it as “a hunger game.”
Franny Choi: (LAUGHING) I know! Hunger game as a countable noun. One hunger game, two hunger games. You did a few hunger games.
Danez Smith: Yeah. Okay, so here’s the thing, right? I have an advantage if I get a chance to get close in hand-to-hand combat.
Franny Choi: Right.
Danez Smith: But the thing about hunger games is that you’re not just fighting the other players, you’re fighting the environment. And so Franny is more likely just to survive like, the night.
(ALL LAUGH)
Franny Choi: Right. Like I know how to pitch a tent.
Danez Smith: Yes. You know, so Franny has more survival skills, and I feel like would do a better job like, setting traps, right?
Franny Choi: Yeah.
Danez Smith: You know? You might be a better long range fighter than me. too.
Franny Choi: I guess so. I mean, it’s true that I have very good aim when it comes to playing Zelda: Breath of the Wild. But, do I have good aim with my physical form?
Danez Smith: Are you good at darts?
Franny Choi: I’m okay at darts. I’m pretty good.
Danez Smith: Okay.
Daniel Kisslinger: And we already talked about your archery prowess just like 10 minutes ago.
Franny Choi: Right. Well, again, aspirational and it’s more about the environment that I need to work.
Daniel Kisslinger: (LAUGHS) Like asking an owl to shut up please.
Franny Choi: Yeah. “Ssh, I’m trying to kill my best friend.”
Daniel Kisslinger: (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: I do think maybe in Hunger Games, the first movie or the first book, fashion, maybe we would cheat death and then both try to kill ourselves and then cheat the system.
Franny Choi: Oooo. Well, I think that the thing is, Nezzy, I think that you have just like a, “I will survive against the odds” kind of like nature to you that makes you incredibly scrappy in like whatever situation. And I think that I have that, but like no follow through, you know what I mean? Like, I think that I would be like, “Yeah! I’m going to set the traps. I’m going to do this!” And then I would like, try to climb a tree, and like, it just would not go well, you know? So I think it would be all theory for me.
Danez Smith: Hmm. But have ya met me? Have you seen me try to reply to an email?
Daniel Kisslinger: To be fair, you wouldn’t have to reply to any emails in hunger games.
Danez Smith: Look.
Franny Choi: Put me in their coach! Oh my god.
Danez Smith: In that case, I’m winning, bitch.
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: My district’s eatin’ this year. (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: But you won’t know where they’re dropping the food off.
Danez Smith: God, no. (LAUGHS) That coordination? No clue.
Franny Choi: Yeah, but no, I think that we would team up. I think we would team up.
Danez Smith: We would team up. We would team up. What the fuck are we talking about? This is so trivial.
Franny Choi: I don’t know. (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: This will be our last episode. We’re like stuck in some weird Hunger Games long—(LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: Yeah. Just like, super relevant and of the times.
Daniel Kisslinger: (LAUGHS) Yeah, it wouldn’t have been a good podcast six years ago, but it really isn’t now.
Danez Smith: No. Wow, look at us. We started with Eve’s apocalypse knapsack. And here we are. (LAUGHS) Here we are trying out TheHunger Games.
Daniel Kisslinger: Still here.
Franny Choi: Talking about YA books that came out seven years ago.
Danez Smith: (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: Still here, still worried. (LAUGHS) All right, well, with that, should we do some thank-yous and get on outta here?
Danez Smith: I believe we should.
Franny Choi: Oh my god, that’s so weird to say, oh! I mean, there’s so much to be grateful for. But I feel so grateful to have gotten to do this show for the last five years with like, two of the best people ever. And also, to make a thing that we care about so deeply. And like it’s been—I don’t know, I feel very emotional right now. Even though I know that it is the right thing for all of us, I will be very sad to not be doing this anymore.
Daniel Kisslinger: Yeah.
Franny Choi: Yeah, Nezzy, you’re—Nezzy!
Danez Smith: (CRYING) No, it’s just, I’m just so grateful to y’all two for being just like a buoy in my life over these last five years. And I think about the like, love and friendship that this has cultivated for us. And I’m grateful. I’m grateful to all the poets who have like, offered their time and energy and minds to this place. And I’m like, proud of everything we’ve done. I’m so excited for these next folks. I’m not even sad. I’m just proud. And I feel grateful. And yes, there’s a kind of sadness that is not depressing about walking away. Because I feel like we walked all the way. And I feel like any more walking would be wonderful extra, but I feel like, yeah, we did the thing. Yeah, I’m just really proud of us. And excited that this door into poetry doesn’t have to close for folks, that it goes on to somebody else, and that we get to walk through somebody else’s, you know, curiosity and lens for the next couple of years. But I just love y’all, and I’m gonna miss this. (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: Yeah.
Danez Smith: Y’all motherfuckers better call me on Friday mornings.
(ALL LAUGH)
Daniel Kisslinger: Yeah. No, absolutely. Thank you both for being so open for all these years to make a thing together. It’s not … it’s no small thing to be as like, vulnerable and willing to try both on mic and off as I think we’ve brought to each other, this real kindness and gentleness and willingness to try something. So, thank you for being open to that and making this with me. And it’s really not a given that anyone who makes this type of show gets to go out on their own terms. That like, never gets to happen. And so I’m so glad that we figured out a way to do that that feels good to us. Because there are so many, you know, just from learning from other people who make shows, so many horror stories of things that people have poured their hearts into being taken away from them. And I’m glad that we fought to do this the way that we wanted to, from the beginning to the end.
Franny Choi: Is there a better gift than to be listened to, you know? I don’t know. It’s like hard to think of one. It’s hard to think of like, a more joyful and gratitude making thing.
Danez Smith: Like Kaveh Akbar says, thank you for your time and attention. They are both unreplenishable resources.
Franny Choi: Yeah.
Danez Smith: So thank y’all.
Daniel Kisslinger: And speaking of thank you, I think we want to thank all of the poets who have come on this show by name.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Daniel Kisslinger: Eve Ewing, José Olivarez, Fatimah Asghar, Casey Rocheteau, Natalie Diaz,
Danez Smith: Erika Sánchez, Raych Jackson, avery r. young, the folks from Kuumba Lynx, Krista Franklin,
Franny Choi: Tarfia Faizullah, Hanif Abdurraqib, Jamaal May, Britteney Black Rose Kapri, Kaveh Akbar,
Daniel Kisslinger: Safia Elhillo, Angel Nafis, Nate Marshall, Emily Jungmin Yoon, H. Melt,
Danez Smith: Jacob Saenz, Kimiko Hahn, Jonathan Mendoza, Kara Jackson, Jamila Woods,
Franny Choi: Paul Tran, Don Share, Pat Frazier, Camonghne Felix, Tasha,
Daniel Kisslinger: Daniel Borzutsky, Joshua Nguyen, Derrick Harriell, Julian Randall,
Danez Smith: Aimee Nezhukumatathil, Helene Achanzar, Beth Ann Fennelly, Morgan Parker, Diana Khoi Nguyen,
Franny Choi: Ilya Kaminsky, Eloisa Amezcua, Brenda Shaughnessy, Yanyi, Cathy Park Hong.
Daniel Kisslinger: Wo Chan. Cathy Linh Che, Joseph Legaspi, Sarah Gambito,
Danez Smith: Xandria Phillips, beyza ozer, Patricia Smith, Parneshia Jones, Toaster,
Franny Choi: Aricka Foreman, Tara Betts, Chris Abani, Paige Lewis, Cameron Awkward-Rich,
Daniel Kisslinger: Michael Lee, John Murillo, Aurielle Marie, Airea D. Matthews, Ross Gay,
Danez Smith: Carl Phillips, Randall Horton, Nandi Comer, Ladan Osman, Marilyn Chin,
Franny Choi: Aracelis Girmay, Naomi Shihab Nye, Ada Limón, Eduardo C. Corral, torrin a. greathouse,
Daniel Kisslinger: Monica Sok. Suzi F. Garcia, Taylor Johnson, Tommy Pico, Carmen Giménez Smith, Shira Erlichman.
Danez Smith: Destiny Birdsong, Cynthia Dewi Oka, francine j. harris, Aria Aber, Evie Shockley,
Franny Choi: George Abraham, Cyrée Jarelle Johnson, Douglas Kearney, Sarah Kay, and Rachel McKibbens.
Danez Smith: Thank y’all.
Franny Choi: You all made the show possible. And it’s been such an incredible honor to get to be in conversation with some of our favorite poets ever.
Daniel Kisslinger: We also want to thank Ydalmi Noriega and Itzel Blancas at the Poetry Foundation.
Franny Choi: Hell yes!
Danez Smith: Woo!
Daniel Kisslinger: I know you’ve heard that every single episode. But Ydalmi has been our partner since episode one, and has been the champion and the steady force that has made this show possible, and quite honestly, has like, kept us fed.
Danez Smith: (LAUGHING) Amen.
Daniel Kisslinger: And surviving through this time, and has been such a compassionate and loving and fierce proponent and partner in this show. So thank you so much to you, Ydalmi.
Franny Choi: Yeah. And Itzel has been the behind the scenes warrior, making so much of this show possible, including getting us to submit our invoices so that we can be fed. (LAUGHS) So, thank you, Itzel for everything that you’ve done to make this happen.
Danez Smith: Seriously, applaud those two people and they are part of the greatest gift that the next producers and hosts of VS are going to get is working with those two people right there.
Franny Choi: Yeah.
Danez Smith: So thank you from the bottom of our hearts.
Daniel Kisslinger: Absolutely.
Franny Choi: I mean, we always say thank you to Daniel Kisslinger, so we’re gonna say it again! Thank you, Daniel Kisslinger!
Danez Smith: Thank you, Daniel!
Daniel Kisslinger: Awww.
Franny Choi: And also, I think that maybe we should say thank you to everybody who applied for the host position. And everybody who was part of making those decisions and sort through all of the incredible, amazing applications that we got. It’s like such a huge honor to be on your lists of things that you might want to do. So, thank you.
Danez Smith: Yeah, and honestly y’all, we’re still in the midst of picking as we record this, and it’s so exciting, because I don’t know whose hands this thing is going to go into, but they will be good hands. (LAUGHS)
Franny Choi: Yes, absolutely.
Danez Smith: Literally don’t know how we’re gonna pick, but, oh my god, the future of this podcast, just as the future of poetry, is in such, such incredible hands. And so, tune back in next time with some slightly different voices, but with the same spirit of like, come on in, take your shoes off, and let’s talk about some poems, as you always found here. Yeah.
Franny Choi: And maybe we should also make sure to mention that in between the end of this last season of VS and the next season of the new version of VS is going to be our first sort of VS presents mini season, which is Roll Call,
Danez Smith: Roll Call!
Franny Choi: An audio exploration inquiry anthology extravaganza into the past, present, and future of Black poetry and poetics, which we’re so, so excited to share with you all.
Danez Smith: And you never know, you might see me, Franny, and Daniel a little bit on the VS Presents stream now and then, you never know when we might pop in and say hi to you. So we’re not all the way gone. But our role over here is changing. But you know, same VS time, same VS place.
Franny Choi and Danez Smith: (LAUGH)
Franny Choi: This will not be the last you hear from us. And yeah, we’re really excited about Roll Call. And really excited to see how VS, how it evolves and changes and grows in the future.
Daniel Kisslinger: Can I say more thing?
Franny Choi: Yeah.
Danez Smith: Yeah.
Daniel Kisslinger: Thank you, again, for your thought and your care, and your love, and your dedication, and your commitment to this project. I don’t take it for granted. I’m so grateful for it. It’s been a joy to become your friend and it’s been a joy to make this with you.
Franny Choi: Aw.
Danez Smith: Aw.
Daniel Kisslinger: And the listeners like it. People like this show.
Danez Smith: People like this bullshit, right? (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: People like it!
Franny Choi: You guys had fun right? Yeah.
Daniel Kisslinger: Yeah. Did you like our birthday party? Did you have a good time?
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS) Did you have a good time at the parties?
Danez Smith: Was it good for you too?
(ALL LAUGH)
Franny Choi: Oh, that’s a different kind of party. Someone had to go there, and it was going to be Danez.
Daniel Kisslinger: Yeah, as always.
Danez Smith: We’re going down a hole and of course it’s mine. Ummm—
Daniel Kisslinger: (LAUGHS)
Danez Smith: So, maybe we should—
(ALL LAUGH)
Franny Choi: Okay.
Danez Smith: Maybe we should get out of here. Y’all! Oh my—there’s gonna be no perfect ending. Thank y’all for five years of incredibleness. To my co-creators and also to y’all out there listening. This would be nothing without y’all. So, thank you.
Franny Choi: Yeah, thank you for writing. Thank you for creating. Thank you for listening.
Danez Smith: The next hosts, y’all better take care of our baby.
Franny Choi and Danez Smith: (LAUGH)
Franny Choi: Yes.
Daniel Kisslinger: All right, love y’all. Get home safe.
Franny Choi: Get home safe.
Danez Smith: Be well.
Franny Choi: Be safe at home. If you’re at home.
Danez Smith: Make brave, power-destroying decisions.
Franny Choi: And good meals for yourself.
Daniel Kisslinger: Eat your leftovers before they go bad.
Franny Choi: Yeah, definitely eat your leftovers before they go bad.
Danez Smith: Put your vegetables someplace in the fridge where you’ll actually eat them.
Daniel Kisslinger: Mm-hmm. If you smell poop, look on the bottom of your own shoes before you tell someone else.
Danez Smith: Hmm. Whoever smelt it dealt it.
Franny Choi: Well, I don’t know.
Daniel Kisslinger: Questionable.
Franny Choi: You don’t have to like the reading to get something out of it.
Danez Smith: Mm-hmm.
Daniel Kisslinger: Get in the habit of saving your document every time you make a change to it.
Danez Smith: Preorder books when you can.
Franny Choi: And make sure that it takes a really long time to actually caramelize onions.
Daniel Kisslinger: Oh yeah, leave yourself enough time to caramelize. That’s key.
Danez Smith: Yeah, I like that one.
Daniel Kisslinger: Let’s go out on that.
Franny Choi: (LAUGHS)
Daniel Kisslinger: All right, y’all, love you.
Danez Smith: Byeee!
Franny Choi: Byye! Love you, bye.
(RECORDING OF “Kind of Love” by Tasha PLAYS)
Friends, we’ve reached the end–Franny, Danez, and producer Daniel say their goodbyes after five wonderful years as the crew of VS. The team reminisces on some of their favorite moments from the show, tells some behind the scenes gems, and gets a lil weepy by the end. As we say in the episode, we are so deeply grateful to have had the opportunity to create this show for you. Thank you for your ears, time, attention, and love.
Stay subscribed for VS Presents Roll Call, a limited series launching early 2022 about the past, present, and futures of Black poetry, as well as VS season 6 with our new hosts and producer!
NOTE: Make sure you rate us on Apple Podcasts and write us a review